[Raised $148 million] Ep.126 - The First 100 with Steven Bartel, co-founder of Gem | Customer Interviews | Founder-led Sales

Steven Bartel is the co-founder of Gem, which is helping talent acquisition teams hire with remarkable speed and efficiency. With Gem, teams can automate and personalize candidate communication, unify all recruiting touchpoints into a single system, and get usable data across the entire hiring process. Gem has raised a total of $148 million from notable investors such as ICONIQ, Greylock, Accel, Sapphire Ventures, and Meritech Capital.

Where to find Steven Bartel:

• Website: Recruiting CRM | All-in-One Hiring Software | Gem
• LinkedIn Steve Bartel | LinkedIn

Where to find Hadi Radwan:

• Newsletter: Principles Friday | Hadi Radwan | Substack
• LinkedIn: Hadi Radwan | LinkedIn

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Transcript

Let's do it. Broadcasting from around the world. You're listening to the first 100. A podcast on how founders acquired their first 100 paying customers. Here's your host, Hadi Rodwan. Steven, good to have you on the show. How are you doing today? Doing great. Thanks for having me. Amazing. Thank you for stopping by. Steven Bartel is the co-founder of GEM, which is helping talent acquisition teams hire with remarkable speed and efficiency. I think your company helps teams automate and personalize a lot of candid communication, even unifying recruiting touch points in one system. And then you make. usable data of all of this available to enhance the entire hiring process. And you've done that for a few years now. You've raised $148 million from iconic investors like Greylock, Accel, Sapphire, Iconic, and Merit Capital. Stephen, tell us a little bit. Did young Stephen exhibit any signs of entrepreneurship while you were growing up? Good question. Back in the moment, I didn't think so. But looking back, Yes, absolutely. All throughout growing up, I was constantly trying to find little side hustles. And I think the very first side hustle I had was when I was six or seven. I used to love rocks. And I would walk down the street and I would see such cool rocks in people's driveways, courts and things like that. I would see Micah in the sandbox. Do you know Micah, like the little shiny rock? What I would do is I would take my red wagon, I would pile up quartz rocks from my neighbor's driveway and I'd walk around the neighborhood trying to sell rocks. I think some folks thought it was cute, but I might make like $5, $10 a haul. That was my very first business. Now I don't think stealing rocks from your neighbor's driveway teaches you exactly how to run a company. selling cookies. So I used to love the Boston Marathon. I grew up in Boston. And I used to love going to the marathon because I knew every year I could bake a bunch of cookies and I could sell them and turn a profit. The coolest thing about that though was my parents wanted to teach me the value of money and a little bit more about how businesses work. So they would have me do everything and they would have me front the ingredient cost. that I could actually understand how much money goes into making the cookies and really analyze how much profit I could turn once a year at the Boston Marathon. So I think all throughout life, I was working odd jobs, starting little side hustles, which I think ultimately was good training wheels for starting a company one day. Amazing. But you ended up in your career as an engineer. How did that engineering background and then the business background serve you well as you started Jam? I think it's a lot easier to build a company if you know how to build software. At the end of the day, folks with an engineering background, they can pick up pretty much anything. I think the hardest part for a lot of folks when they have an idea they want to go work on is how do I build it? How do I bring it to life? And so... Both me and my co-founder, we were both engineers. I had spent about five years at Dropbox. He had spent six, seven years at Facebook. And the fact that we both had engineering backgrounds meant in the early days, oftentimes the bottleneck was just how fast could we build and we could both pile on and be building full stack product. Yeah, I highly recommend to anyone who's thinking about starting a company to at least pick up the basics of full stack engineering. Take us back to the founding moment. How was jam built up? And why do you think you started in the recruiting space and not in another industry? Well, going back to the aha moment, we were actually looking at a different industry. And this was before we had any customers before we had talked to a single customer, the moment when we connected the dots, we were looking at a different idea, we were looking at an idea in the sales and marketing tech world. And Ultimately, we weren't the right founders to go start that company. But back then we were thinking about applying a lot of the advances in AI and speech to text and applying that to sales calls, a la Gong or chorus, right? And back then, I think Gong and chorus were just a year or two years into starting and we took a look at that space because we're like, wow, like a lot of this transcription. speech to Texas gotten a lot better. And we were thinking to ourselves, like, where could you apply that technology? We remembered from my time at Dropbox that our sales teams were spending a ton of time on calls, but they didn't have any great visibility into those calls, largely a black box. So we're looking pretty deep into that space and category. I think we went and talked to around 50 potential customers about how they run their Inside sales teams, we talked to AEs, we talked to sales managers, we talked to VPs of sales, we talked to sales ops professionals, and got a really deep understanding of how sales works and also all of the technology that sales and marketing teams, for that matter, have at their disposal. And while we didn't end up going and starting that idea, that was at the end of two months of customer discovery. That was the moment when we realized, ha, the sales thing is remarkably similar to recruiting. And these sales and marketing teams have like 10 X better technology to help them go and attract new customers. What if we took some of that same technology and built it out for recruiting teams so that recruiting teams could sell and market to prospective candidates in the same way. that a sales and marketing org wouldn't just wait for customers to come find them. Amazing. Thank you for sharing the beginning story. So if we look today at TrustRadius or Captera, you see that there's so many softwares in the HR space. If we look at the value chain you're in, where does Jam fit in? At the beginning, in the middle, at the end? Yeah, so the easiest way to think about Jam and the talent acquisition space is On the one hand, companies have LinkedIn, which is everybody out there. It's kind of like the phone book for talent. On the other hand, companies have what's called an applicant tracking system. And that captures everyone they're interviewing. Now the problem in the recruiting space is there's this big white space in between LinkedIn and the applicant tracking system. So, you know, Jim was. designed for this more modern way of recruiting where companies sell in market to prospective talent. And applicant tracking systems, it's even in the name, applicant tracking system. It implies that folks have already applied, raised their hand, expressed interest and are now going through the interviews. And what they help you do is they help you manage and track the interview process. But what was happening is just so much work that happens before people apply. countless recruiting reach outs. They're hosting recruiting events. They're going on campus. They're collecting passive referrals. They're running newsletters. They're running talent marketing and branding efforts. There's an order of magnitude more work and touch points happening at the top of the funnel in recruiting, yet there's no good system to track them. The applicant tracking system only starts when folks raise their hand and enter the interview process. went and ate up all that. So we became the source of truth for the top of the funnel in recruiting. And we've coined that category talent CRM. So it's kind of like, you know, Salesforce meets HubSpot for recruiting with some really great outreach automation on top of that, almost like outreach or sales loft, similar to sales automation, but for sourcing. Now over time, we've gotten an Eden up the rest of the funnel. So Just this year, we launched our own applicant tracking system because we were getting so much pull from our customers and from the market to have an all-in-one solution so that they're not having to stitch together different tools. But for starters, that was our field of play. It was the top of the funnel and becoming the source of truth for everything that happens before candidates apply. Amazing. Thank you for sharing that. So take us back to the early days. You have now with more than 1,000 customers. But when you started Jam, probably wasn't known and the space, that white space, was probably done in a more traditional pen and paper way. How did you get into or in front of the customer, and then how did you know who to approach, who's that decision maker within the organization? Yeah, good question. We actually went and talked to a number of different potential customers to try to hone in on the ICP for Gem, ideal customer profile. Yeah, you're right. Our competition back then was pen and paper and spreadsheets and a bunch of point solutions that didn't write back to a single source of truth. That was the competition. So back then, the first thing we did is when we had this idea, we had this thesis that sales and marketing remarkably similar to recruiting. What if we took a lot of the great technology that had become available for sales and marketing teams and go build that out for recruiting organizations? That was the core thesis. The first thing we did is we went before we wrote a single line of code. We went and talked to at least 50 probably upwards of 75 customers. And what we wanted to do was validate that they in fact, have this problem that they were trying to sell and market to talent and that they didn't have a great way to do that. And sure enough, we found a vast majority of those folks were still managing the stuff in spreadsheets. or a bunch of point solutions that didn't write back to a single source of truth. The interesting thing is we found the most cutting edge. 10% of those customers were using sales and marketing solutions for the recruiting. And we were like, bingo, that's the thesis. And we're seeing it play out. Folks are trying to few horn sales and marketing technology into their recruiting stack. And naturally a lot of those folks that we talked to you to validate the problem became our earliest customers. you know, first handful of them. Back then, the way we were finding them was we were just going into LinkedIn. And the great thing about our space for Nick and I is we had spent five years, seven years at Dropbox and Facebook respectively. So those companies had massive recruiting teams. And at that point, by the time we were starting Jam, so many of them had fanned out and joined other companies. We're leading recruiting startups or in leadership roles at growth stage companies. So we were able to line up something like 40 or 50 customer conversations in the first month, just by going into our network. From there, we deployed this cool trick. So in the early days at Jam, we talked to a sales coach. We actually ended up bringing him on board as a sales coach, as we started to sign our first paying customers. But in the early days, we had just done like an exploratory call. And there was this cool trick, which is at the end of each of those customer conversations, asking them who are the one or two people I would benefit most from talking to, and then make it super easy to say, Hey, look, like, I'm going to make this super easy. Is it okay if I reach out to them directly and just name drop you mentioned your name? And once we found that once we seeded those initial conversations with like 10, 20, one or two dozen. customer conversations, those turned into 40, 50, 100. And that by the way, is like a really great tip for early stage founder led sales as well. Amazing. That's a great tool because you essentially told the turn a cold outreach into a warmer outreach, and then people would feel the need to respond because they've named dropped someone they know. So that's a great tip. We'll, we'll talk about it even a little bit further, but Effectively, the first hire of your company is the founder and the CEO. And how you build the culture, the processes, the values and principle, and essentially the first few sales will dictate how the success of the company will evolve in the future. What is it about you that you think has enabled you to actually go out and become successful as a founder led sales rather than deciding and maybe getting a CRO in place? So I think in the early days of validating go to market and getting your first hundred paying customers, not necessarily a hundred, we probably brought on somebody to help with sales. Once we were at about 20 paying customers and for every company, that's going to be different. But for the first five, 10, 20 customers, depending on how big your deal sizes are, I think it's actually really important that founders do sales. And that companies go the founder led sales route because a lot of people fall into this trap of thinking that if they go and hire somebody to help with sales, that all their problems will be solved. And maybe they think that it feels like a silver bullet and especially can be a tempting thing to do when maybe you're not having success doing sales. And a lot of founders think. Well, maybe it's because I don't have the background. I don't have the skills, but actually, no one can sell your product better than a founder. Nobody understands the vision of where it's headed. Nobody can on a call say, yes, we will build that for you to close a deal. Right? Like salespeople can't do that. And in the early days of selling a B2B SaaS product, doing sales is just as much about like selling a vision and figuring out what the product should be. As it is about closing deals and in fact it's more of that and so a lot of people think if they're struggling to close those first 10 20 customers I'm going to go bring on somebody that has a sales background and that's going to solve my problems but actually there's no way somebody with a sales background could be successful until you have that early roster of customers. So that's the advice I give to. pretty much every startup that I'm helping mentor all the folks that I invest in and advise for. And certainly I think it would have been really hard to bring on somebody to help with sales before we had closed any customers at all. If you take us back to the early days, if you want to give us the master class of how Stephen sold their first few customers, what would be like the stages that you go through? And that probably would be your playbook when... you're going with the scaling strategies later when you're going from 100 to 1000 customers. Yeah. So in the very early stage, we were doing sales before we even knew what sales was. We were doing sales before we even wrote a single line of code. Because coming out of those 50 conversations with customers, we had two that were like locked and ready to go before we'd even built any product. And that's another remarkable thing is A lot of people think that if they build a product, sales is going to get a lot easier. Very few people actually try a product during a sales cycle. In fact, there's something cool about the flexibility of not having built anything because then it can be anything you want. You can literally sell anything you want if you haven't built a product. So our approach was actually to talk to customers first and then use those customer conversations to figure out what was the... first of all, should we go start this company? But second of all, what was the smallest MVP that we could go build that our first few customers could use? And it worked remarkably well. In about five or six weeks, after talking to 50 different companies about how they manage their recruiting, we were able to line up to customers, the first of which would be willing to use the product within two weeks of building, we had narrowed down the problem set and the MVP the minimum viable product to just two weeks of coding to get our first customer on board. Now these weren't paying customers yet, so I can circle back to that. But the process that we used, we didn't really know what process we were using, but in hindsight, we were absolutely following a sales process. We typically had a series of three or four conversations with each of these customers. The first one was all about validating the problem and the pain. And, you know, a lot would call that discovery, right? The second set of conversations was circling back with them. And by the way, like in the early days, we didn't even know what the solution would be. So we're setting, we're planting the seeds that in one week, Hey, we're going to go talk to 15, 20 more people like you. We think this is really exciting. If we end up going down this route, we would love to talk to you again. Are you open as speaking in a week, week and a half? Because at that point we think we'll start to form a picture of like what the solution is that we can. go build to solve this problem of yours. And so after a week and a half, two weeks, they would be primed that we would circle back. In many cases, we'd actually booked that time on their calendar live in that first call, even though we didn't even know what we were going to demo for them or talk to them about. And so that second call was a demo, basically. And our demo back then was balsamic mocks. Have you heard of balsamic? It's this, um, really scrappy way of creating mocks. A lot of people use Figma these days, which is like really high fidelity. It actually looks like a real product. Balsamiq is trying to not look like a real product. It's these weird cursive letters throughout the product that has all these little scrappy UI components you can just drop in. And it's really great for mocking up quick flows. So our first demo of the product was this set of Balsamiq mocks that I made in like two or three hours. And we circled back to all of those folks that we had done discovery about the problem, the pain point. And we did a demo for them remembering the things that we had talked about with them and framing it up in terms of the problems that they have. And the demo was just three balsamic mocks of core workflows that we were going to go build if we decided to start this company, the third set of conversations, which again, we set the expectations. Hey, you know, we're going to go get some more feedback on this because at this point we're putting real things in front of customers, getting their feedback. on what the product could be. The third set of conversations was trying to get people's commitment that if we went and built this, they would use it. And that's kind of like getting a vendor of choice, although we weren't really competing with anything. And it's also kind of like starting to negotiate commercials, though in those early days, we weren't yet charging money. And I think in hindsight, that might've been something we should push for because that really... Make sure that folks have skin in the game. But I think we had enough conviction back then that, Hey, these recruiting teams are already using sales tools. Like I think if we build something that's specific to their use cases, we will, um, yeah, be able to go start something successful in this space. And so the third rounds of conversations was just getting their verbal commitment that if we built this very specific set of features that they would use it. And we scoped. those features to be something that we could build in two weeks so we could get our first customer within the first two weeks of writing those first lines of code. If I were to sum it up in terms of a sales process, because we didn't know we were running a sales process back then, but we were. It was discovery, demo, and then negotiation. It was a simplified sale process. Sometimes you might have sales processes that look more like four, five, six stages, but for us, that was the very first sales process before we even had a product to sell. Amazing. Thank you for sharing this short masterclass that we can definitely leverage for any new startup founder that are starting. You mentioned something very interesting that caught my curiosity, which is you had at the beginning some non-paying customers, right? And this is always a challenge as you're starting your company and you're in the enterprise sales business is you want to get logos because that creates some sort of social proof for the next client to say, hey, we have five, 10 clients. But the question here is, it's a thin line between deciding when to monetize really and when to build logos. How did you approach that? When did you say, okay, it's now time to be more serious when it comes to negotiating the commercial? Is it on the first 10 clients or is it more on the 30th clients? It actually was the first 10. In fact, the first 10 were like, let's just get companies, any companies using the products. Again, in hindsight, like I think you actually can charge money from the start, but as first time founders, we were a little scared to do that. We thought, what if charging money turns customers away? What if they say no? We then learned that it was actually not too difficult to get customers to pay for software they're very used to buying software. And so I don't know that that's necessarily the right approach. If I were to start another company, I think we would be charging from the offset. But for us in terms of how it played out, yes. logos. We didn't charge them anything to begin. But then once we had 10, we feel like, all right, like, this feels pretty credible. We had companies like Dropbox, Checker, CifScience, all using Jam in the early days within the first three months of starting the company. At that point, we circled back and tried charging them money. We actually went back to all of those first 10 customers and said, hey, it's time to pay now, as opposed to... charging net new customers money, we wanted to just test to see if we can convert any of those into paying customers. We figured it'd be easier to start with the ones that we had than to go sell net new deals where they were paying. And I think about half of them, maybe half of them turned into paying customers, but not in the way we expected. Actually, this was really interesting. Back then, we thought we might have more of a self-serve almost like sales automation for recruiting outreach, mix max sales loft for sources and recruiters who were doing a lot of sourcing and for prospective candidates. We thought that we might be able to get recruiters to go in there and swipe a card for 40, $50 a month. And so that was our first experiment with monetization and getting people to pay was saying, Hey, like it's time to pay like here's a place where you can self-service And we What's going And the coolest thing happened when recruiters said, Hey, I want you to talk to my manager. Or when they said, Hey, I want you to go talk to procurement. We would hop on a call and the manager would say, Hey, this is great. Like so-and-so is seeing so much success. I want to buy seats for the whole team. So it became this really cool bottom-up motion where if we can just get a single recruiter leveraging the product, then. Oftentimes it would bubble up to their manager or to the VP and we would sell the entire recruiting team on seats. So we didn't really know it back then, but we were almost doing these mini proof of values with individual recruiters. Now over time, as we built up enough customers, enough credibility in the market, we just went and sold directly to the managers and in some cases, town operations, for the most part, VPs of recruiting as the deals got larger. But in the early days of just signing those first 10 paying customers, especially, it was a lot more of like a grassroots bottom up. Just sell them however we can. Makes a lot of sense as you start. You were one of the early hires in Dropbox and you happened also to act as a hiring manager to grow their company to a thousand of employees in less than five years. Can you share specific learnings that you brought with you to Jam from Dropbox? Yes. So the number one learning, because actually the companies are very different. And the cultures are very different and what it takes to build a successful company when you're Dropbox is very different from what it takes to build a successful company when you're gem, when you're a B2B SaaS company doing enterprise sales, you know, as opposed to, yeah, more of a self-serve prosumer business, that's Dropbox. But the one thing that really we were able to take with us and was even like A lot of what led us to start Gem in the first place was Dropbox did an incredible job hiring some of the best people in the world. And I think for me, that really reinforced the importance of recruiting, which at the end of the day was also why we started Gem was because recruiting was becoming so important to all companies out there, way more important and way more strategic than it was 10, 15, 20 years prior. But we of course applied that to our own. company and worked probably 10x harder than most founders in terms of like hiring that early founding team and making sure that every person we brought on to gem was exceptional. What is a principle that you live by that has served you well in your journey? One principle that I live by. Well, it's interesting. I mean, could probably speak to something on more of a personal level. but then also speak to something on more of a company building level. On a personal level, one of my core values is honesty. And I think the way that translates into building a business is a core value that. My co-founder and I aligned on really early on, which is transparency. And I think that's served us incredibly well when building jam, because it's created the kind of culture where, you know, folks have. the same level. So one of the traditions we have internally at JAM is we share out our board deck after every board meeting. And it's in this spirit of transparency and building a transparent culture internally. And our take on it is that if all of our JAMs, if all of our people have the same level of visibility into the business as the board, as our investors, then everybody's going to be able to make better decisions. And that transparency It's easy when things are going well, but it's important when there are challenges. It's when it gets the hardest cause it's can be tempting to sweep things out of the rug, but it's actually really important and incredibly valuable for everybody to be aware of what are the biggest challenges for the business and what's going on and how they can all help because if people are aware, if you're transparent with them, then everybody can do something about it. So I think this core principle for me personally of, of honesty, which is one of my personal values, which has translated into a core value here at Jam of transparency, equally driven by my co-founder who used to run his teams at Facebook in a very transparent way, has served us really well. Amazing. Thank you for sharing this principle. You know, there's a quote that I just came across, and it says something along that line, measure your success against others and you'll be unhappy when they win. Measure your success against yourself. and you can be happy when others win. How do you measure your success? Well, in the early days, the good news is for BDB SaaS companies, there's a lot of benchmarks in terms of how fast typical BDB SaaS companies should grow. What their payback periods should be. The funny thing is I didn't actually have a good sense of what those benchmarks are. And I think if I had, we might have set goals that were average and grown like an average B2B SaaS company. Because I didn't know what those were, we just kept pushing ourselves to grow faster and faster and faster with no real knowledge of what the average benchmark looks like. In the early days, we grew from zero to a million in ARR in about nine months. And then we grew from one to four the next year, one to four million. And I think if I had known benchmarks, if I'd known like the triple, double, double rule of thumb, for example, you know, maybe we would have aimed for one to three instead of one to four. And there was this interesting thing where not knowing actually pushed us to just keep, keep beating the previous quarter, keep closing more sales than we had previously. And yeah, I think. as a decent rule of thumb, aiming to continue to beat the performance that you put up last month or last quarter can be a really good way for early stage B2B SaaS companies to grow. And it adds up in a really exciting way. Because if you can improve the amount of revenue that you're closing every month by 10%, that grows and compounds in a sneakily fast way, in a really exciting way. I think in terms of like measuring success, like the best way to do it is to hold yourself to a high bar and keep aiming for higher as you're able to continue to beat your goals. That's great advice. Thank you for sharing this. At the end of each interview, I would like always to ask the guests to share a business problem or a question that they are trying to solve. And we take that question and we ask it to the next guest so we see their perspective and maybe they could help in offering a solution or a different approach. Is there a question that's pondering on your mind or a business problem that you're currently working on that we could pass on to the next guest? Yeah, I imagine that you're probably talking to a number of folks that are running B2B SaaS companies that are running tech companies. And I think everybody would benefit from knowing more about what people are doing in this environment where we've seen a tech downturn. What are people doing to navigate that and shift their business to the reality of this new market? Excellent, we'll post that question to the next lucky guest. But I do have a question for you from the previous guest and it's practically about the influx of data that we have currently and that there's so many systems out there that are using data to make smart algorithms. Where do you see the balance between this going full gear and becoming fully automated in terms of decision making? Could be anything from insurance underwriting to even, for example, in your case, automatic recruiting based on factors versus still having the gut feeling or the human touch of someone sitting behind the desk and coming out with an alternative decision. I think that data and then on top of that AI, especially with things like large language models and a lot of the advancements that we've seen with chat TBT and things like that. I think that they're having a pretty profound impact on how technology works. In my mind though, and AI to automate decision making, I see it as more of a co-pilot than full automation. In fact, that's how we've built it into the gem product. If you just... search around for hilarious chat GPT mistakes, you'll see exactly why some percentage of the time, a small percentage of the time AI will just make something up. And the really dangerous thing about chat GPT is it's so damn good about being believable that you won't know necessarily when it makes it up. And so most industries that really matters. You know, if somebody is to send a recruiting outreach and AI writes a message that's just completely factually incorrect about the company or about compensation or what you name it, that could have a big adverse impact. So my take on data and automating decision making is that AI, we should think about it as something that speeds us up, that makes suggestions, but that we should still have humans in the loop. And in that world, like AI is maybe saving a bunch of time. personalizing drafts, for example, for the recruiting space. And those drafts just end up in an outbox where recruiters can really quickly review them, make any tweaks they need to, and then press Send, as opposed to fully automating all of those messages that sends from start to finish. Amazing. Thank you for sharing the answer. And hopefully, the previous guest can benefit from it. One last question. Stephen, what's next for Jamf? The big thing that we're focused on now, the whole company's rallying behind is building out our own ATS, our own applicant tracking system. I'm really excited about that because as we bring that to market, as we bring it up market, GEM's going to have the most complete solution in the talent acquisition space, all the way from source to hire. In my mind, that's what the market needs right now. They want one solution to manage all of their hiring. And so I'm really, really excited about that. The other thing I would be remiss to not mention is. Gem is actually free for startups. So if we have folks that are listening to this podcast, that they themselves are entrepreneurs getting started, you can use the full gem platform, the same platform that our thousands of customers use, like open AI. Snapchat, Pinterest, Dropbox, you know, fill in the blank, Brex, any name, name your successful tech company, you can use the same platform that they use for two years for free, if you're up to 15 employees. So really that program is designed to help hire your founding team. And I'm especially excited about the new ATS for that audience, because now Jam is full stop like everything you need to manage your hiring as a startup founder. This is amazing. Steven will put those in the show notes and hopefully we have few founders early in their stage that can benefit from this. Thank you for stopping by. This has been an amazing episode. Very insightful. How can people reach you and are you hiring? We are gem.com slash careers. Got four open roles right now. And yeah, if you're interested in a role, you can apply there. Excellent. We'll put those as well in the show notes. Steven, we wish you the best of luck and good luck with gem. Thank you. Thank you so much for listening to the first 100. We hope it inspired you in your journey. If you're enjoying the podcast, please subscribe to our podcast on Apple iTunes, Stitcher, Google Play, or Spotify, and share it with a friend starting their entrepreneurship journey. Leave us a five-star review. Your support will help spread our podcast to more viewers.