[Raised $40million] Ep.129 - The First 100 with Julio Martínez, the co-founder & CEO of Abacum | Power of Y-Combinator |

Julio Martínez is the co-founder & CEO of Abacum is the leading FP&A automation platform that empowers Finance teams to:

👉Drive efficient growth with faster revenue forecasts, scenarios, and headcount planning.

👉Free up time by automating Board decks and monthly performance and forecasting reports.

👉Increase your time for analysis with all your operational and financial KPIs in one place, in real time.

👉Drive budget owner accountability with structured workflows.

Abacum has raised $40 million from notable investors such as Atomico.

Where to find Julio Martínez:

• Website: Abacum – FP&A Platform to Drive Efficient Business Growth
• LinkedIn (1) Julio Martínez | LinkedIn

Where to find Hadi Radwan:

• Newsletter: Principles Friday | Hadi Radwan | Substack
• LinkedIn: Hadi Radwan | LinkedIn

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Transcript

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Let's do it. Broadcasting from around the world. You're listening to the first 100. A podcast on how founders acquired their first 100 paying customers. Here's your host, Hadi Rodwan. Good to have you on the show, Julio. How are you doing today? I'm doing great. Thank you so much for having me. This is a blast. Thank you very much, Julio, for joining the podcast. Julio Martinez is the co-founder and CEO of Abaqem, which is a leading FP&A automation platform that helps finance team grow faster by helping them forecast better, plan better for their headcount, automate board decks. and many other things. And for those listeners who've just heard about FP&A, it's financial planning and analysis. And the CFOs of the world are very familiar with this because it's always on the top of their mind. And Abaqem has raised 40 million from notable investors such as Atomico to make this happen. Kouliou, take us back to your founding AHA moment. How did Abaqem happen? Yeah, it's how... I've been in finance for most of my career, right? And then different markets, so the US and London and different places. And I then transitioned into technology and I started building products from scratch and got exposed to venture capital as well. And then it was in that moment where I came across the FP&A problem, the financial planning and analysis problem. And to be honest, that was a problem space I understood very well given my dark past. as a finance guy that had both investment banking, but also operational role capabilities. So I was very familiar with these teams, also M&A teams, corporate finance teams, so in general understanding the problem space very well. And you know how that goes, right? So you become very obsessed, you see a massive opportunity, it's a huge market, but also you think, hey, I have an unfair advantage. to actually tackle and solve this. And because I was in the trenches, I was bleeding in the head as well. So kind of that vocation and that mission of building the product I wish I had when I was in pain. And that I then also connected with, of course, my stellar co-founder, George, and we'd been friends for many years. We met during our MBA. He's a stellar engineer, European Space Agency, super smart guy. He turned also into the dark side. So he became head of financial planning, then CFO, then COO in unicorn companies. So also very, very familiar with the space. I was researching a lot before launching the idea. And then one of those conversations was with my all good friend from the NBA, George. And then the rest is history with this idea to partner. Amazing. I mean, if you look at people who have a finance career, like accountants, financial people. You see that they're risk averse. They like to take the route where they study the numbers. They're happy with dealing with the end consumer. In your case, did you exhibit any signs of early entrepreneurship before you dive into your finance career? I had been exploring back in the day, do a few things. So I actually launched a small e-commerce, maybe around 2012, that we actually folded. It was too complex and we didn't have the time. I had also been exploring options about fundraising and some other alternatives there. I had like a natural curiosity about doing that. I wouldn't say I was taking a lot of risks from a venture building perspective before jumping into my previous experience to Avacom, which was actually a venture builder. And then I launched four fintech products to market from scratch. But then I started this more entrepreneurial journey of building stuff from scratch. maybe when I was already 34, something like that. Prior to that, maybe my risk was more, you know, hey, I've lived in India, New York, Sao Paulo, Zurich, London, like different places. Maybe I expressed my curiosity in that way. You mentioned on your LinkedIn page that you're a person who liked to buy a line, you wanted to be a cook. Is there any learnings you brought with you from the cooking world to the entrepreneurship world? Hey, enjoy. Enjoy the journey. Enjoy the journey. This matters a lot. I think allowing time to really celebrate, to spend time with the people that you like and love and making the journey very enjoyable as well is very critical. I think as entrepreneurs, we oftentimes forget that the journey needs to be fun and building that into the culture really matters a lot. Amazing. So take us back to the early days. How did you find your first customer? Well, Jorge and I had been in finance for a long time. So I think that before launching the idea as well, like for instance, I personally conducted 150 user research interviews, scripted, recorded across companies in different sizes, different industries. And that is to say that we had a network in finance in general, in entrepreneurial circles as well. By conducting this research, you are actually talking to customers about their pains, what hurts the most, how to solve it, how they think of it, business systems, whatever, right? So you cover a lot of ground. Those conversations were actually very conducive to prompting some of, you know, hey guys, we are thinking of building this. And then many people were in pain actually, right? So they were very excited about somebody solving that solution. So they offered. people naturally close to us in our network as well, to embark the journey with us as a design partner. I think an early learning for us is that, and we push from that from day one, is that we wanted everybody to be paying and we were expensive from the first customer. So everybody paying, so even if you are a design partner, you know, there is no free lunch, you want to validate that, that willingness to pay, you want to be expensive from, we sell to the mid market, right? So also maybe there is. exceptions in some other company sizes. But for us, it was important. You pay, we are expensive. Yeah, you can be a design partner. So these were our early customers. So people close to our network that we were researching with. Amazing. Follow up question on how did you determine your pricing? So you go to someone and say, Hey, I want you to pay $1,000. You probably will provide them value more than this. How did you know where to price, especially you're saying expensive. So how did you analyze this is the value we're going to bring. However, this is the pain point or this is how much cost you're currently incurring and this is where we are going to set. Is there a specific framework that you've used? Yeah, so back in the day and in a way even today, we look at different ranges there, right? So one is clearly if you are talking to somebody a prospect, right? And then you identify you're gonna be saving X amount of time that they devote into a manual task. Obviously you have a reference point, either headcount or saving that time in terms of what's the salary cost. You have a reference point, which is the cost base. So hey, you guys have two people doing manual task for 70% of their time, which is very common in finance teams. You wouldn't believe this. Super smart people doing monkey's work. And I was that monkey back then. So yeah, so you have a reference point. Hey, it's like you are wasting this money. Of course, there is more into it. So you need to bring also competitive pricing. So maybe there are legacy solutions that provide a very bad experience, but you know more or less the price ranges. So that's another reference point for you. And then generally speaking, the reflection comes smarter when you think of the value that you are providing. And sometimes, unfortunately, that's intangible, right? But you can get some proxies. What's the value of better decisions? Because you have all the data that matters in one place, and you can drive those decisions faster. with the board, with the CEO, with no errors in the data. Maybe this is 0.5% of the revenue, 0.1% of the revenue. I don't know, you play with Excel a little bit, right? You understand what that can be, some proxies, what's the ROI behind that, but you can also express that into the conversation. More particularly about being expensive, that was also one of our learnings. We started precisely with 1,000 per month, actually, and I thought it was gonna be very expensive. I thought, this is crazy expensive. We have nothing. prototype that barely works, how you start. But then you're 1000 per month and then they didn't blink, right? Like, yes, of course. Then, shit, you've left money on the table, right? So maybe that should have been 2K per month or 3K per month. You never know. But I thought if they pay $100 per month, I'm going to be lucky here because I have nothing. So this is how much you underestimate the value that you are providing to your early customers sometimes. You tapped into your network, you did customer interviews, you landed your first few customers. What was the next reasonable or unreasonable tactic or channel that you went after? Could be a guerrilla tactic that you've deployed to get the next 10 customers. Anything you could share with us on this? Yeah. So before going into more the classic outbound and inbound and all pretty scrappy as well at the beginning, of course, right? So do it yourself. And as founders, we did it. I remember back then. Users these days tend to be organized around communities that usually live in WhatsApp, in Slack groups, even in LinkedIn or in some other platforms. And you belong to those communities. So there are CFO groups that are 100 CFOs from this country or this sector and they self-organize. around communities and then if you know your customer and you are researching and you belong to the community and you really understand the problem space and the problem you're solving, oftentimes you either are already in that community or can have access to that community. Of course, those communities don't like people that go there to sell, right? So that's very clearly the moderator is going to kick you out immediately if you show up saying, hey, you know, buy my shit. So you know, of course. But the thing here is being smart about it. And also providing value. So for instance, you can conduct surveys, asking questions. What's your top, for instance, what's your tech stack in the CFO office? That's information that you need to build your integration strategy, but also this relevant information because maybe at the end of the day, you maybe have surveyed 1000 people, 2000 people, depending on what, and then you give back to those communities the results that you've got. And then these guys will triangulate on, oh, look, my tech stack compared to the answers, or whatever, right? Or what are your main problems? What is your growth projection for next year? Whatever. So this is type form kind of survey, right? So it cannot be more guerrilla type of strategy, but you are generating that brand awareness. And then therefore you can then ask for some conversations about with the respondents. And that leads to your next 10 to 20 customers very easily, because you are... you know, right on your ICP talking to many people. Amazing. Talking about Typeform, they are one of your customers, I believe. What our first customer, literally. Yeah. Wokas, how did you get in front of them? And then how did you navigate the different stakeholders? Because as you said, in any enterprise sales, you have the users and then you have decision makers and then you have the payers, which could be the same person, but also they could be different, which complicates a little bit more the sale. How did you land them? How did you navigate the challenges and the objections around it? Yeah, so the objections, there is a classic, right? So you need to understand who is your main user and your champion, but also the economic buyer and then the other stakeholders that have a say in that process and that need to inform the process. And it's important that you identify from that early on. And we were asking about it very specifically from early conversations. If you are sitting in front of an empowered CFO, then probably he's ready to sign the budget himself whenever he sees the value and he's very independent. If you are talking to an analyst, you are not in the best position, right? And then you need to talk to five more people in the company and you need to start asking very early, okay, who do we need into our next call? How this is gonna go? You make sure you are spending your time where matters. So that's also very tactic, but you want to identify who has the money, right? Who has the budget from in the second call that needs to be very, very clear. The objections look in early stage and in late stage, I guess, but definitely in early stage. Like, you eat objections for breakfast, lunch, and dinner, basically. Your product is very early. Let's assume you have not spent like four years in a cave building this amazing thing. And then you show up, like Figma or some of these guys. Let's assume that you just have a prototype. You've done it for three months, and you launch it to market. And then you're trying to land more customers. Well. If your problem space is complex and your product is complex, you're going to have a lot of objections because they want more, because they have seen something in the past. So I think there is no silver bullet, I guess, for objection management, to be frank. This is more listening. Sales is about listening to the customer, using every objection as an opportunity to learn. And obviously, very tactically, have a document with the most asked questions and objections and come up with a neat idea to solve that. amazing. Thank you for sharing that. Is there in the life of Abacom a crucible moment or an inflection point or a pivotal decision that you can share with us that could have caused the company in going in a completely opposite direction? That's very interesting. So I think that in the early days, right, because here we're talking about the first 100 customers. So that's more to me early days. And hey, I think that Y Combinator was a key moment for us in terms of the acceleration that provided to the company, but also to us as founders. So I think it was a crucial moment for many reasons and I can double click there if you want, but I think people will suspect. Yeah, please, because a lot of people want to get into Y Combinator, but it's difficult. There's so many things there. So what have you learned from Y Combinator? Yeah, definitely. So Y Combinator for context is, you know, probably the best accelerator in the world. It's very difficult to get into. And we were born in Europe. So we launched the company in Europe, but we knew our company had the vocation to be global from early on. And we landed very international customers. Our first 10 customers were already mostly international. So we wanted to make the point that we could be, you know, in different, in multi-countries and that back in the day, FP&A, financial planning and analysis software doesn't have any localization constraints, but people misunderstanding us by accounting software and they obviously have a lot of local regulations and stuff. So basically, long story short, we wanted to prove we could be international from early on for good or bad. I don't know if that was very smart or not, but this is what we did because maybe you want to saturate the market first and there are different strategies, but we said, hey, let's try to be global from day one and then we shut down these guys that don't understand And we did that. So the US was sort of relevant for us understand this market from day one. And we thought that Y Combinator could be a great enabler to get into the US market. On top of that, obviously they have amazing advice, right? To be honest. And they are super strong. We work there with amazing partners that really pushed us and crushed us. And, you know, they are, they make sure they inflict pain to make you better. And they are pretty brutal about it, but we grew a lot. and to their credit. I think that there was advice that they provided because they see a lot. So they see so many companies, so this pattern recognition thing that they have, and then they provided advice that frankly I didn't follow. I thought, hey, I'm going to do something else because this is my opinion. And in retrospect, they were mostly right and I was mostly wrong. So what can I say? I think listen to these guys. Amazing. Take us back to that early days where you were building your first MVP because in Y Combinator they like to do MVPs, go out, prove product market fit, and then continue building features. How did you manage that challenge? Because the financial planning world is quite big, right? And the cheapest alternative is an Excel sheet where you go in, you build your assumptions, you can build an output, right? So how did you navigate building a lot of features, building only the MVP and then Alternatively, just having the cheapest option, which is Excel, which you need to overcome people moving from there into a software like yours. I love this question, right? It's so good. It's so good. And I'm not sure I have an answer. So it's complex to this date. So of course, what's the status quo for us, right? Or if you operate in any industry, most of the time people are addressing a pain. in a way or another, right? Maybe it's imperfect, maybe it sucks a little bit, but probably they are doing something. In our case, is people they default back to spreadsheets and hey, it's very, very painful, right? So in the mid market, it becomes very painful for our customers because volumes of data have increased a lot. So managing all that in a spreadsheet becomes close to impossible and also expectations on finance teams. So CEOs and boards expect a lot from them. And therefore, they realize, wow, to answer these questions, I need to go back to my cave, remodel everything, three days, long nights, weekends, trying to number crunch. So to answer a simple question, and then you have the CEO thinking, these guys are very slow. So this is the problem that we are addressing. So we realized early on that down market and the intensity of the pain was not there, right? I think that, to be honest, with a good combination of Excel and Google Sheets and a little bit of hacks and stuff, you can get a lot done, frankly. Selling to these guys, yes, you can do some of that. There is some willingness to pay, but people are not bleeding in the head. So the intensity of the pain is not as acute. So hence, we were very clear from the beginning that we wanted to sell to the mid market because this is where the pain exists. But then the big question comes. People in the mid market are more sophisticated and they want it all. So you do research with them and you talk to them and Yeah, I want my integrations and I want my data cleaning. And then I also want reporting and beautiful graphs and beautiful tables and drill down on transactional detail. I want to model. I want one click scenarios. Like, okay, dude, like this is a five-year roadmap. You just put on the table and you know, we are three developers. So this is gonna be a challenge. So for us, we had a clear idea of our ICP from day one. Mid-market, we knew the industry, we had been exposed to finance, so we knew that we wanted to do mid-market. Enterprise is also very interesting, but building enterprise from day one is very complex and also there is way more competition up there. So we thought, okay, mid-market, this is what we want to crown, but your question is extremely relevant. Which pain you start to address? Look, for good or bad, we decided to cover a lot of ground from the beginning because customers wanted and we had sold it, right? So now you need to go build it and play with it. That, of course, And then later on, start building more and more depth into the product. Right. So you cover a lot of ground, a lot of functionality, but sometimes, especially at the beginning, right. You realize, wow, you know, but I need to go deeper. So then very early on, we also saw that we had to go very, very deep because the complex is very problem. The result today is, yeah, so the best product for the mid market. So we have really solidified that position, that reputation and that brand. and the customer feedback is amazing, and the G2 is flying, and word of mouth, and reference calls. So we eventually got there. But in retrospect, maybe you want to really focus more on pushback on customers and do very well as to set of the feature set. To be honest, you never know, because maybe you want to do that subset of a feature set, and then nobody buys you, which was a little bit our chicken and egg problem, right? No, we'll do very well the data cleaning, yeah, but who wants the data cleaning only? You know, I want you to solve everything for me because otherwise I'll stick with the spreadsheets or I go somewhere else. When you're in a space that people want everything, yeah, difficult. It's a very challenging thing which a lot of startup founders face because when you have a big roadmap, as you said, you start essentially hiring more developers and product managers because you need to get that roadmap as fast as possible. there, but at the same time, your revenue is lagging. So now you're in a position where your cash burn is much higher. And this is where you have a lot of tension to raise and it puts everyone under pressure. Is that something that you face? And if you did that, how did you manage like the hiring versus the revenue coming into the company? Look, we were risk takers and ambitious from day one, right? So we went ahead and built a formidable team. world class from the one and sizable maybe during the first nine months or one year. It was not so big, but the minute we saw that our product market fit was solidifying. So product market fit, of course, is not black or white. It's this journey towards solidity. And when we saw, wow, we are on the right track. So we are not there, right? Because we have still to build a lot, but we are on the right track. We have a lot of certainty as to what to build and customers are really, so this magic is happening, are really giving us very positive feedback and we have this great partnership too. Then I think you have a few options, right? And maybe you can be slower and take more time. We decided to push the pedal down and deliver more value to customers faster and this customer obsession and we're gonna build faster. So up to today, more than 50% of the company is in product development, which for a B2B SaaS is almost a double. than what you want to have, but we continue committed to building this amazing product. Amazing. Julio, what's a principle that you live by that has served you well in your journey? Yeah, so, hey, passionate about this topic. So I have a good number of principles. I think a topic that I think is very relevant for entrepreneurs is don't get attached to the outcome. So attaching to the outcome and fixation on expectations is really a shortcut to unhappiness. to be miserable. I think that focusing on what you really control, which is your mindset, which is your effort, which is showing up every day at your best, taking care of yourself and making sure you operate at peak performance from well-being, from inspiration, and you know from hard work of course. This is what you actually control. You control that process. A fixation on the outcome is usually something that, hey, you don't control. probably it can make you very miserable and obviously very easy to say, difficult to practice, but I try to live by that standard. I mean, you're an interesting person because you're sort of a biohacker. You do cold showers, you do meditations, you do intermittent fasting. Take us through your day, how's your day like in terms of these activities and how did these influence you at your work? Yeah, totally. So what I do is simple. So I wake up usually for 35 straight. I do one hour meditation, be passionate, one hour on something. Then I go directly to journaling. I spend some time journaling daily or almost daily. I think that clarifies a lot as well. And journaling to me is extremely powerful from a personal and professional perspective. So I mix everything into my journal and I record my decisions from. I mix everything and it's very powerful. I think 10 minutes or 15 minutes is enough, at least for me. Then I drink a lot of coffee. So that's also, you want to make sure if you're a coffee addict like me, front load that into your day because you want to protect your sleep as well, right? So I think coffee is important to realize that you don't drink coffee during the first 60 to 90 minutes of the day or nine hours before you go to sleep. So this is also a hack that it's important. Then cold showers are good for your discipline and for your nervous system in general. So I don't do the ice bath or whatever that some people do. I guess I'm weak and I admire these guys. Cold shower with New York temperature in the winter is the most I can handle. And I think that's also then obviously, I work like around 11, 12 hours a day. So that's roughly what I do. I try to protect my sleep. imperfect, but usually I measure it and try to be consistent, the classic stuff about temperature, about light, and then exercise is critical. So exercise is like to put one hour a day, maybe five days a week. So I've charged that more during the weekend, but exercise is, you know, you have different routines, so I'm not going to get into it, but you know, get into your, basically your body to move and to build stamina. is critical, that is fundamental for your performance as well. And then fasting, I used to be more one meal per day for a long time. I think I'm major sizing more lately, so I keep on changing. So these days I'm doing 16, 8, which is fairly easy, right? So we call it intermittent fasting. It's mostly bullshit. Like you skip your breakfast, right? And you're doing that anyway. So I think, you know, there is a lot of myth, but I think it's easier than it sounds. Yeah. Amazing. You also mentioned you love chocolate. What is your favorite chocolate? I try to stick to the 85% chocolate. I fail many times. Then I indulge myself into the sugary chocolate, which I shouldn't. But hey, something I found recently is the pretzels in Trader Joe's, they are too addictive. I shouldn't be announcing this because they are so addictive. So yeah, my wife, I tell her, don't buy them. They are too much for me. Exactly, if they're in the house, you have to eat them. Yes. Julio, I usually do a question for the guests where they share with us a business problem or a question that they currently are trying to solve at work. And we take that question and ask the next guest how would they respond with a solution or with an approach that they would look at from their perspective. Is there any question that you'd like to leave to the next guest? Well, I have a good number of questions, so if the next guest can help me, that's going to be invaluable. Yeah, we have a lot of questions, but maybe look, how do you continue to scale culture as you grow the business, especially in a context where we have operations in New York, in London and in Barcelona, I mean offices, offices in New York, London and Barcelona. All of our engineering team is remote and some other people in the team as well are remote. So some people are remote, some people are hybrid. in three different locations. And I think we've been very intentional, so my co-founder and I have been very intentional on building the right culture and building that stickiness and having people rallying behind the mission and why what we do matters. But as we continue hiding people in different locations and sometimes you have the feeling our silos developing, do they understand really our rituals? Are our rituals up to date? Maybe we are lagging behind and we should be a bit more sophisticated. So I have a lot of these questions around because you want people to be extremely energized and getting it, it's a startup, right? It's tough, it's a journey. You want energy, stamina, and people pushing and committed to it because what we do matters and we have an amazing opportunity in front of us. Yet, different people, different places, different cultures, and you don't know if the intensity and the understanding of this is our life, right? So if that is there. It's a great question, I think, because as you're growing, First, you build the culture as a founder. You want consistency, you want the right people. But then as you scale, the culture is harder to maintain and it becomes even harder when you're a remote company, right, or a hybrid company. Some people are here, some people are in different times on how do you maintain that? That's a great question. We will definitely leave that to the next guest. Now, the previous guest left you a question which I think you're ideal to answer because it's about pricing. And their question is, well, we set up the price. How can we change it up or down, right? That becomes the harder question. How you do it, okay? I see you nodding, okay. Well, we are increasing prices very frequently. So I guess that you just do it. I think what's important to me, so how you do it actually, very tactically, I assume, is you need to see where the pricing is all over the place. So the current prospects that have, have we've done it and continue doing it is obviously the prospects where you have had. pricing conversations, you need to honor that. So that's out of scope. And then very immediately, you need to understand that impacts the website, that impacts our contracts, that impacts operationally where you need to flag it. I think more importantly is not the how you do it, which is a bit more operational. And wherever there is pricing, you need to update that. It's why you do it and where you go from there. And are you changing your packaging as well? So we've changed that a few times. Are you changing? you know, how you convey the value to your prospects. Are you changing your value metric? Are you introducing a value metric? Are you moving from, I don't know, modules to usage? And why? So those are the conversations that we constantly have in the company. I think, and this is very operational as well, but I leave it there as well. Every pricing needs to have very clear metrics or windows or evidences that allow you to understand if you are learning fast enough. and if that move was successful. So testing pricing is very important, even if you do it at a scale and you change your pricing for your whole go-to-market motion and then you update the website and stuff, but you need to pay attention from metrics and also qualitative feedback. Is the close one great? The same, has it improved? Obviously it can improve because your product is superior and stuff, but is sales then giving you the feedback that pricing is making it easier? and that deals are less stuck in pricing or in contract negotiation. Yeah, that type of thing. Amazing. Julio, one last question. What's next for AbaCamp? Well, we're in this journey of starting 2024 with tremendous ambition. We are seeing a very strong market when it comes to finance teams realizing that they need to upgrade their game, that they are at the center of the strategic conversation. Think of these guys of the market we've been through. They have been mandated. with extending runway, cutting cost, left and right. What if we close this market? What if we launch this product? What if, can you run me this scenario? And they have navigated like this crazy market the last 18 months, let's face it, it's been, you know, it's been a tough market. And they have been, maybe in 2021, 2020, they were not so relevant in the company because money was not a constraint. But with the change in the market, like these guys are at the center, are asking all these tough questions and they are just oftentimes stuck with spreadsheets that are not really allowing them to unleash their potential. So finance continues to be the most under-leveraged function in the business, unfortunately. And what we see in 2024 is a very ambitious roadmap to deliver from a product perspective. And yeah, and the target is to triple again. So, you know, plenty of work to do. Pauliu, we wish you the best of luck. Two more questions. How can people reach you and are you hiring? Yes, so we are definitely hiring. So ping me if you want to onboard the rocket ship. And then second is, I'm very active in LinkedIn. I like to build community there and to share our thoughts about finance, company building and stuff. So in my profile at Julio Martinez from Avacom, please follow me and let's stay in touch and engage there. Thank you very much Julio. We wish you the best of luck. Have a great day. Thank you so much. It was great. Thank you. Thank you so much for listening to the first 100. We hope it inspired you in your journey. If you're enjoying the podcast, please subscribe to our podcast on Apple iTunes, Stitcher, Google Play, or Spotify, and share it with a friend starting their entrepreneurship journey. Leave us a five-star review. Your support will help spread our podcast to more viewers.